Post by nosurrender on Feb 14, 2010 10:28:27 GMT -5
Here in the UK people have been selling so called Irish Staffords but if truth be known most of these dogs came from Kennel club show dogs imported into Ireland. Then in the 80s they were imported back into the UK in large numbers because Ireland bred them for the badger trials and for the pit, unlike in the UK these Staffords were real working Staffords. Alot of Staffords were crossed with Pits and EBT in the 80s. Heres a article written by a dogman from Ireland who produced some great match Staffords its a good read thought you guys might like it. Enjoy.
BUSTING MYTHS.......ON PAST HISTORY.
Having read some of the contibtions in your periodical, it seems apparent theres quite a few Stafford fanciers living in fantasy land.Any suggestions that we should accept the English Bull Terriers version of history for the breed would be particularly retrograde, as that version is basically the English Bull Terriers history transposed onto the Stafford.
According to the English Bull Terrier story, the 1860's type White English Bull Terrier was superior to the Original Bull Terrier as a fighting dog, why then did the old time sporting fraternity not abandon the older type to embrace the new Dalmation/English White Terrier/Stafford mix ?....the answer is simple, you cannot mongrelise a strain by crossing to a different breed and expect to consistently produce game dogs. I speak from experience....not armchair theories.
The idea that a long established game line of combat Bulldogs could be improved by crossing with Terriers may have been acceptable 150 years ago when evolution was a dirty word but it doesnt work in practice.
The Irish Wheaten Terrier not the show Wheaten is as game as any Terrier, having been bred for the specific task in recent times of meeting big game underground in total silence, often taking terrible punishment. Many times these dogs have been crossed with Staffords in order to improve this inclination to work in silence to the progeny competing in trials in Ireland. Ive bred quie a few litters myself this way, using really game Staffords and Wheatens from Peter Gormans strain which were the very best...of all the pups i produced, i only know of one dog possessing the type of gameness i required of my Staffs. This dog Terry T's Grip went 2:20 and lost game against a local Staff dog of 36lbs. None of the brothers or sisters were game and he didnt sire a single game pup. I think that the Bull breeds were indeed crossed with other dogs to increase the determination of Lord Orfords coursing Greyhounds, to increase the gameness and strength of jaw in Terriers used to hunt, and more recently to increase the poke and agility of the Mastiff breeds to produce the so called Bandog, but never ever to increase the fighting ability of the Pit dog. I must stress that my opinions are based on experience at the sharp end....not from books or pub conversations.
Another source of amusement is the growing trend of fanciers claiming to own Old-Tyme Staffords. I'd like to know where were all those Old- time dogs 20 years ago, when i was looking for competition for my own Staffords.All show strain Staffords produce some pups which are more rangey than the ornamental favourites of the EKC exhibitors and, when these are passed onto pet homes some get into the hands of those who claim to have remnants of ..secret strains, thats been hidden away since a 100 years ago....others are produced by crossing APBT'S, like the newly recognised Jack Russell Terrier enthusiasts claim to trace their dogs back to the Reverend Jack Russell himself. The mainstream Jack Russell fanciers who hunt their dogs want nothing to do with Kennel Club shows, considering that show Jack Russells were infused with Fox Terrier blood to produce showy-looking tho largely useless dogs.
One example of the Old Time Stafford that was quoted was CH. Stormer. well to those 'Old Time' Stafford fanciers who are new to the game, i can tell you that this dog was bred from3/4 English Bull bitch ( which was also the mother of Flint a 2 x W and 1 x L) and a pure Stafford called Adam. When Adam was owned by Nibbsey of Belfast he quit in 35 mins. Adam was son of Socks the great badger dog and he was pure show bred being a grandson of the Belfast bred CH Badgerlea Rascal.
Rickys CH. Psycho another 'Old Time' Stafford was 1/8th English Bull Terrier and double bred on Geronimo, Geronimo wasnt from some obscure strain of secret fighting dogs either...but from show bred lines his grandsire was CH. Brinstock Glenagow.
The former owners of CH. Stormer the Boneyard boys insist that the best Stafford they ever saw was a son of my old Oscar, a dog called Teddy and that includes GR CH Duke...CH Psycho...CH Stormer. Oscar also produced my own own bitch i named Squaw a 2 x winner. None of these dogs were bred off any mysterious old time strain either as Oscar was sired by CH Rockmere Rip It Up and a Belfast show Stafford. So where where were all those 'old time' Staffords hiding when these dogs were active?
I must add, that im not championing the cause of show breeding but the simple fact is that the only strains of Staffs that exist today are from KC reg'd stock somewhere along the line or else a cross of these dogs with KC English Bulls ....or more recently with APBT's.
That is the situation in Ireland, and if someone in Britain is claiming to have 'old time ' Staffs that arnt bred off KC stock, why could none be found to challenge CH. Brock or Dillenger ? both bred down from registered stock. From many of the pedigrees advertised of 'Irish Strain' Staffs its apparent that these donot represent dogs that were ever matched over here, with very few exceptions, but someone is doing very nicely out selling their notion that they were. the fact that top quality dogs are so rarely produced, even when breeding for working ability alone in Stafford, is the reason why many of us have gone over to pure APBT's.50 years of breeding for purely ornamental dogs has flooded the country with inferior dogs, making it all the more difficult to reproduce gameness. When it does crop up its a throw back. Its much easier to produce in Pitbulls which have game dogs scattered more closely in their pedigrees.
LETS CUT THE bullcrap....Humbug is a product of fantasy and a lack of knowledge with experience.
BUSTING MYTHS.......ON PAST HISTORY.
Having read some of the contibtions in your periodical, it seems apparent theres quite a few Stafford fanciers living in fantasy land.Any suggestions that we should accept the English Bull Terriers version of history for the breed would be particularly retrograde, as that version is basically the English Bull Terriers history transposed onto the Stafford.
According to the English Bull Terrier story, the 1860's type White English Bull Terrier was superior to the Original Bull Terrier as a fighting dog, why then did the old time sporting fraternity not abandon the older type to embrace the new Dalmation/English White Terrier/Stafford mix ?....the answer is simple, you cannot mongrelise a strain by crossing to a different breed and expect to consistently produce game dogs. I speak from experience....not armchair theories.
The idea that a long established game line of combat Bulldogs could be improved by crossing with Terriers may have been acceptable 150 years ago when evolution was a dirty word but it doesnt work in practice.
The Irish Wheaten Terrier not the show Wheaten is as game as any Terrier, having been bred for the specific task in recent times of meeting big game underground in total silence, often taking terrible punishment. Many times these dogs have been crossed with Staffords in order to improve this inclination to work in silence to the progeny competing in trials in Ireland. Ive bred quie a few litters myself this way, using really game Staffords and Wheatens from Peter Gormans strain which were the very best...of all the pups i produced, i only know of one dog possessing the type of gameness i required of my Staffs. This dog Terry T's Grip went 2:20 and lost game against a local Staff dog of 36lbs. None of the brothers or sisters were game and he didnt sire a single game pup. I think that the Bull breeds were indeed crossed with other dogs to increase the determination of Lord Orfords coursing Greyhounds, to increase the gameness and strength of jaw in Terriers used to hunt, and more recently to increase the poke and agility of the Mastiff breeds to produce the so called Bandog, but never ever to increase the fighting ability of the Pit dog. I must stress that my opinions are based on experience at the sharp end....not from books or pub conversations.
Another source of amusement is the growing trend of fanciers claiming to own Old-Tyme Staffords. I'd like to know where were all those Old- time dogs 20 years ago, when i was looking for competition for my own Staffords.All show strain Staffords produce some pups which are more rangey than the ornamental favourites of the EKC exhibitors and, when these are passed onto pet homes some get into the hands of those who claim to have remnants of ..secret strains, thats been hidden away since a 100 years ago....others are produced by crossing APBT'S, like the newly recognised Jack Russell Terrier enthusiasts claim to trace their dogs back to the Reverend Jack Russell himself. The mainstream Jack Russell fanciers who hunt their dogs want nothing to do with Kennel Club shows, considering that show Jack Russells were infused with Fox Terrier blood to produce showy-looking tho largely useless dogs.
One example of the Old Time Stafford that was quoted was CH. Stormer. well to those 'Old Time' Stafford fanciers who are new to the game, i can tell you that this dog was bred from3/4 English Bull bitch ( which was also the mother of Flint a 2 x W and 1 x L) and a pure Stafford called Adam. When Adam was owned by Nibbsey of Belfast he quit in 35 mins. Adam was son of Socks the great badger dog and he was pure show bred being a grandson of the Belfast bred CH Badgerlea Rascal.
Rickys CH. Psycho another 'Old Time' Stafford was 1/8th English Bull Terrier and double bred on Geronimo, Geronimo wasnt from some obscure strain of secret fighting dogs either...but from show bred lines his grandsire was CH. Brinstock Glenagow.
The former owners of CH. Stormer the Boneyard boys insist that the best Stafford they ever saw was a son of my old Oscar, a dog called Teddy and that includes GR CH Duke...CH Psycho...CH Stormer. Oscar also produced my own own bitch i named Squaw a 2 x winner. None of these dogs were bred off any mysterious old time strain either as Oscar was sired by CH Rockmere Rip It Up and a Belfast show Stafford. So where where were all those 'old time' Staffords hiding when these dogs were active?
I must add, that im not championing the cause of show breeding but the simple fact is that the only strains of Staffs that exist today are from KC reg'd stock somewhere along the line or else a cross of these dogs with KC English Bulls ....or more recently with APBT's.
That is the situation in Ireland, and if someone in Britain is claiming to have 'old time ' Staffs that arnt bred off KC stock, why could none be found to challenge CH. Brock or Dillenger ? both bred down from registered stock. From many of the pedigrees advertised of 'Irish Strain' Staffs its apparent that these donot represent dogs that were ever matched over here, with very few exceptions, but someone is doing very nicely out selling their notion that they were. the fact that top quality dogs are so rarely produced, even when breeding for working ability alone in Stafford, is the reason why many of us have gone over to pure APBT's.50 years of breeding for purely ornamental dogs has flooded the country with inferior dogs, making it all the more difficult to reproduce gameness. When it does crop up its a throw back. Its much easier to produce in Pitbulls which have game dogs scattered more closely in their pedigrees.
LETS CUT THE bullcrap....Humbug is a product of fantasy and a lack of knowledge with experience.
