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Post by Jessica on Mar 29, 2010 3:02:20 GMT -5
I think it sounds like a good idea.
I would like to challenge the dogs in a mental way i think they need it as much as physical exercise. Tracking is a good exercise, we do a bit with our dogs we don't know much about the training side of it, just what we have researched but it is a simple exercise that really challenges the dogs and it can be adjusted depending on the level of the dog. We have often done it with Poppy to channel some of her drive in a more constructive way than just chasing a ball - she loves it and is very natural and is as equally satisfied.
These ideas are great - I think this would be much more constructive for the ' image of bull breeds etc' if the exercises were more controlled and managed emphasizing more on the obedience side of things, and relationship with dogs and handler. rather than just the prey drive of our breeds like standard lure running and Aframe.
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Post by Jessica on Mar 29, 2010 3:12:23 GMT -5
Question is as Bull breed owners how intelligent do you want your dogs, i believe if there too bright then they will question your reasoning and decide whether the task is worth doing. A not so intelligent dog questions nothing and does all its asked. Which would you prefer? I suppose it depends on what you do with your dogs, work or athletic trials. I know that my dogs that question me are the dominant ones - not necessarily the smart ones. Rosa our bulldog is very very smart and NEVER questions anything, she is very submissive and obediant...Same with Poppy she retrieves because she is smart and knows it will be thrown again. I have watched the gun-dogs recently and they are all naturally submissive, a trait that clearly makes them more obedient and workable- something that bullbreeds could really benefit from i think. IMO I think the reason you see so many bull breeds refuse to pull or retrieve isn't intelligence its dominance - something that is very common in bull breeds more common than people realize.
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Post by stag on Mar 29, 2010 4:29:14 GMT -5
I put these sorts of training into my daily walks with the dogs. I will stand in one side of a field,facing a wire fence then there is a metre wide path then another wire fence then field....so i will have the dogs next to me chuck the ball into the oposite field...dogs then jump one fence then the other then retrieve the ball then back over the fences,ball to hand. A couple of pics of this being done. A well train dog is a must in the field for me...dont want dogs running down sheep etc.. I agree jess i think there are loads of intelligent bullbreeds out there and i think it would be great to show off that brain in such events. Thanks for all the comments guys and gals enjoyed reading.
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Post by ragingstormkennels on Mar 29, 2010 5:22:53 GMT -5
I agree, I think to have a dogs mind tested as well as its physical capabilities would be something i'd be very interested to see and do with my dogs. On an everyday basis my dogs I feel prove their intelligence, I sometimes dont even have to speak a command to one of mine and she understands from a simple hand gesture .....now thats pretty smart. If theyre out in the dark, I sometimes throw a ball in the park and they cant see the thing but normally tack it down by their sense of smell. I agree Jess, a dog that retrieves is the intelligent one because he/she know the game will keep going.
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Post by orangepeel on Mar 29, 2010 10:20:40 GMT -5
good points, maybe theres point about te dominence/pulling thing. How many highly driven bull terriers would retrieve there quarry though in the field. Not the same as a ball in the garden i feel. How many hunt with pure bull terriers, not many as we all know there a feckin knightmare to control once there on something I do think a bull breed would benefit in this day and age from these more submissive qualities, but we would have to outcross to achieve this level of conformaty and it would not be the same dog in my opinion. the Bull crosses are wonderful animals, and i think much superior to the pure Bully in my opinion due to the much more campatible/ trainable nature that the outcross brings
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Post by ragingstormkennels on Mar 29, 2010 10:28:08 GMT -5
I suppose that all comes down to the handler and what they train their dog for.
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Post by orangepeel on Mar 29, 2010 10:32:08 GMT -5
i dont think so, thats why farmers have collies not pit bulls
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Post by czbrno on Mar 29, 2010 11:01:41 GMT -5
horses for courses or so they say ...although through selective breeding for desirable traits anything is possible
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Post by stag on Mar 29, 2010 11:13:45 GMT -5
There are people up and down the country working pure bulls day in day out in the field.There not as untrainable as you would think. I know of some that work live stock on the farm,Flushing quarry to the gun,In the right hands anything is possible.
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Post by ragingstormkennels on Mar 29, 2010 11:21:41 GMT -5
i dont think so, thats why farmers have collies not pit bulls And again, I personally think bulls are very easy to train with a lot of it coming down to the handler and if you have the experience and the need you can train them to do anything, especially as Bev says with the right breeding behind them. The reason farmers use collies is because thats what those dogs sole purpose is, that their job, hence why theres no point having a pit bull Its like owning a Ferrari just to go to the supermarket with lol
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Post by Jessica on Mar 29, 2010 13:22:26 GMT -5
I think a good handler can help, but its down to selectively breeding for the traits you want.
Take the litter we have now each and every pup has a different temerment.... From as early as 4 weeks you can see the basics of their temperements... some drivey, some more aggressive, some, more social, some more submissive. There is one bitch in particular that shows the basic qualities of a very trainable dog - more submissive, extremely smart, very attentive, very social and egar to please. Were as there a small male that is very independent, more aggressive, less of a want to please humans and much more dominant. Its about understanding your breed and what you are looking at and what you want to achieve. A good understanding of canine physiology and behavior for me is a must for a good breeder also, and will make a huge impact on the temperaments of the dogs they will produce. Its all about the breeding IMO.
Something that i have noticed is that when people come to look at our litter they are nearly always drawn the ballsy, confident puppy that comes balling up to them... This is drummed into people that this is normally the best pup which may not be the case in the long run.I have also noticed in general potential bull breed owners will look for this. Bull breed owners in general are normally attracted to the biggest, Strongest, feistiest, and confident pup as it is what has drawn them to the breed in the first place - when in fact isn't always the best choice IMO which may be why so many bull breed owners struggle with control and behavior....
I believe a more trainable submissive dog is obtainable within bull breeds and quite easily within a few generations. Just because a dog is submissive to its owners doesn't not mean it is any less of a bull breed, or lack any of the qualities that a bull breed should require to be true to its breed. From what i have seen its the aggression and dominance that is so eagerly accepted and excused as being 'true bull breed temperament' that actually interferes with the full potential of many bull breeds. For me i dont think you don't need that agressiveness there, and with the wrong misplaced types of aggression comes dominace... I think its something that breeders should breed away from when possible to create a better more manageable dogs.
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