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Post by czbrno on Apr 19, 2010 0:56:07 GMT -5
I am interested to hear your views on whether serious dogs attacks are on the rise in the UK?
If so,why?
I realise as long as we have kept dogs as pets they have at times bitten people and that unsuitable owners have always kept dogs,but we appear to be following the USA with gradually increasing serious attacks on people by dogs.
As a child i remember mostly hearing about russels biting postman,a collie a joggers' leg but children being killed in their own homes? very rarely so why now?
The other thing is that years ago far more dogs lived as strays or strayed everyday yet there were still less dog or human attacks
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Post by stag on Apr 19, 2010 1:22:43 GMT -5
If we think about it there are more people in the UK now than there was back in the day.There for more dog owners and dogs on are streets. When you live in the inner citys the only place to walk the dog is the local park and as we all know there is no finding a quiet spot so places like the park are just ticking time bombs with all these dogs running round off lead. I just wonder if dog attacks on humans has always been the same but back then it didnt make headline news so we never got to hear of it unless it was local to us. I dont know the answer but just a couple of thoughts.
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Post by Jessica on Apr 19, 2010 4:23:49 GMT -5
I believe the main reason is that the line between dogs and human has blurred too much - Dogs are treated as humans and when they react in the way in which a dog would people are horrified.
Particularly with children - I have my in laws around and they think i am mean to our dogs - I am not i am hard on them... its i very different. Our dogs are not aloud to step a foot out of line. They are treated as dogs and know their place - I bring my 3 year old to treat them the same way. They have NEVER so much as looked at her in the wrong way. Were as we go to my mother in laws and she got bitten by their Yorkshire terrier because 'she was running around to much' no repercussion for the dog - NOTHING he got picked up cuddled and given a dog chew in the other room.
When you treat a dog in human way it will repay you by acting like any dog would in a human citation.
I remember my grandad had working collies - The dog was rarely aloud in the house if he did he has its bed and place to sleep he was never referred to anything other than 'the dog' he had a job and did it, got fed and that was it. Never on the sofa not even aloud in the living room...
In general people have little or no understanding of dog physiology or body language that would help read the monsters they have created - But lets be honest majority of people owning dogs struggle to string a sentence together....
I was reading on another forum owners starting a thread boasting and laughing about the things their American bulldogs are scared of - The owners are laughing that when their dogs see swinging shop signs, plastic bags' they go mad ' and then think it cute and funny - Not petrifying and unstable...... its shocking to me.
Then there is idiots wanting status symbol dogs.... That's a whole other topic - i don't think i will bore you all with my views on that.... it winds me up too much LOL
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Post by relic on Apr 19, 2010 5:42:46 GMT -5
my self i think that it mite have some thing to with most of the prats breeding these type of big man aggressive dogs and thinking that thats the way most of these breeds should be, big man biting pit bulls and and AM bulls are not the type of dogs that i would wont but to people who have not got a clue never read a book about them and most of them have never seen our heard of one before they buy, one lad in my local pub got him self a preser and asked me if mine was one he said that he had never heard of one before he got his bitch pup for £250, 12 mouths later after it had bit his misses and his mate he asked me to re-home it for him, i was not even going to try and tolled him to have put down he had it for about a mouth more and it had gone for his misses agen before he gave it to a mate of his for grading his yard, but a bet that when the time is right she will be bred from and then there will be some more man biting pups for £250 going around, i think that it is about time that if these type of people wont dogs of these types then they should take some type of test, i would not mind taking one, and i would only by a dog of these types if both the sire and dam had been test as well for health and temperaments. as to many people just try to get there money back for there dogs. There is only a few breeders that i would buy a dog off and you all know who you are
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Post by Jessica on Apr 19, 2010 6:20:44 GMT -5
I agree - dogs with good temperaments will produce offspring with good temperaments - no matter what way you look at it.... that's the short of it..... that's down to the breeders judgment.
The responsibility donst stop there IMO - Were the dogs go is down to the breeders too.
We have vetted the homes of all the puppies and actually gone and visited most of them up and down the country for the last weeks except friends and family.......
We just got back from rural Shropshire yesterday.... it took 9 hours there and back. But i wasn't about to hand over a puppy until i could know everything i possibly could about them.... we will do this for every dog we breed if it means not going to people that cant cope or don't have the sufficient experience or knowledge to raise the dog correctly. Until breeders except responsibility for what hey are producing it will never end.
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Post by stag on Apr 19, 2010 7:29:31 GMT -5
Some great input there people. I agree about not treating dogs like humans its not right there dogs and thats that. The people that i got Morgan from said they were having trouble with him and hand on my heart i cant see what the problem was.We must be alfa of are packs for sure.
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Post by sharon on Apr 19, 2010 7:39:04 GMT -5
I agree - dogs with good temperaments will produce offspring with good temperaments - no matter what way you look at it.... that's the short of it..... that's down to the breeders judgment. The responsibility donst stop there IMO - Were the dogs go is down to the breeders too. We have vetted the homes of all the puppies and actually gone and visited most of them up and down the country for the last weeks except friends and family....... We just got back from rural Shropshire yesterday.... it took 9 hours there and back. But i wasn't about to hand over a puppy until i could know everything i possibly could about them.... we will do this for every dog we breed if it means not going to people that cant cope or don't have the sufficient experience or knowledge to raise the dog correctly. Until breeders except responsibility for what hey are producing it will never end. Bang on the money Jessica!! I agree totally, until ALL breeders give fore-thought to temperament and health rather than looks and accept the responsibilty of the pups they have brought into the world, ie: placing in suitable homes not palming them off on anyone for a quick quid, keeping back pups until a suitable home comes along, having commitment to the new owner of pup, offering support where needed to new owners of pups, I'm sad to say it will carry on. Fair play to you for going to the trouble of personally vetting your pups potential homes, breeders with ethics like this are unfortunately few and far between. I also can't do with people who namby pamby their dogs, a dog thinks like a dog and often can't cope with being humanised, as I'm sure you all know you can actually stress a dog out more by babying it than treating it like the canine companion it is, it's a shame some people have them as substitute children.
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kager
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Posts: 101
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Post by kager on Apr 19, 2010 8:49:01 GMT -5
Some top posts on this thread..couldn't agree more..a breeders responsibilty is with the dog for its lifetime..always being on hand to offer advice and prepared to remove and take pups back if owners are struggling..I took a pup back from a guy at 9/10 weeks old..he was very upset and it was tough thing to do..but my gut instinct was you cant handle a pup you cant handle a potentual 90lb dog..it wasn't fair on the family or the pup..hes now in the hands of someone who can handle him.. Breeders have to be held accountable for the decisions they make when breeding and selecting homes..making tough decisions is all part of being a breeder..temp issues within any breed should not be glossed over because time and effort has gone into a dog/bitch..if its there it needs removing..if you do it right and take your time it pays dividends..happy owners and happy dogs..
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Post by Jessica on Apr 19, 2010 8:56:33 GMT -5
Sod the Gorden Brown - We can run the bloody country ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by relic on Apr 19, 2010 9:37:40 GMT -5
We all have the same thoughts on breeding and passing dogs on, but i bet that most of the dogs that do go on to kill or bite are from so could breeders that could not give a dam were the pups are going to go
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Post by czbrno on Apr 19, 2010 13:23:19 GMT -5
I feel that perhaps some of this "phase" might be linked to cultural changes. If you look through the net sites advertising dogs it becomes obvious quickly that many people breeding the more "specialist" dogs are often young thoughtless,egotistical men who have no idea or interest as regards to where resulting pups should be best placed. I don't remember a time when dogs were SO attractive to the younger people ,often teenagers who quite frankly often cannot keep themselves out of trouble,let alone a 80-100 lb bullbreed. Maybe a start would be careful and thoughtful reintroduction of a dog license- this time not one anyone can just buy from a post office but one where each animal owned needs to be listed,with a perminant i.d on each dog and any license holder must be over 21. God only knows how or who would police such a thing as we have daily gun and knife crime to deal with but if the license fees could be used in enforcing the controls perhaps just SOME of these people could be stopped. Also possibly making it law that EVERY litter bred can only be sold by someone with a breeders' license? Reducing the amount of litters born in flats or sheds to poor quality ,uncared for dogs would be helpful Only ideas,obviously some people would'nt give a toss about laws but even if it saved one child from maiming or death surely it would be worth it?
But ultimately someone MUST be held to account for these attacks,not that it helps the unfortunate child involved afterwards
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Post by Jessica on Apr 19, 2010 13:38:46 GMT -5
I couldn't agree more with all of the above.
I think a strict breeders licence should be bought in - I would go as to far as saying larger more powerful breeds should have an extra licence of some kind maybe tests but something needs to be done??.... I know all breeds are potentially dangerous BUT would a spaniel do the unstoppable damage that the American bulldog did to that child.... i very much doubt it.
I also that that breeders need to take more responsibility... I would say i maybe id tattoo each dog they breed, or have a breeders microchip as well as the owners one... ? This would force breeders to have responsibility for what they are breeding.
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kager
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Post by kager on Apr 19, 2010 13:49:30 GMT -5
The sad thing is Jessica, Bev.that in theory the ideas are sound..but the very people that need to be targeted would pay no heed to laws and any changes brought in,..also trying to enforce it would be almost impossible..dogs are the new weapon of choice, the latest fashion accessory, and have been and will be the ultimate status symbol..those of a certain mindset you can not reason with or educate..they will do what they want to do and no law will tell them otherwise..
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Post by ragingstormkennels on Apr 19, 2010 13:57:08 GMT -5
Great posts peeps, much of my thoughts already out there.
I have to say, I am absolutely appalled every time I hear the news about a dog attack.......my heart sinks and I just think of the poor child exposed to the poorly raised dog and of all the dogs that will be seized because of a "crackdown". When I heard the news, my Mum's answer was well you should not own a dog if you have children, which, Im not quite sure why she made such a bold statement because my niece grew up with our dogs from day one. Then I showed her Jess's pics of Cherry and the dogs. I think Jess has got it spot on, when you have children in your home with your dogs, your dogs need to know boundaries......... the human-dog relationship MUST NOT be confused and if thats not clear thats where the problems lie.
The dogs I think are the victims, bred poorly with no thought on parents temperaments, or where they will go. Much like Jess when I have ever placed my pups, I house checked and vetted everyone, I needed to see proof of ID and proof of address.....I will go as far as saying I needed to know my pup will be financially supported throughout its life so only stable homes were considered, every person that owns my pups knows that if for any reason they cannot look after the dog any longer it is to come back to me and I will find it a new home....it is never to be gifted to anyone nor is it to be given to a shelter. I will always hold myself responsible for the pups I have put out there and this I think is the problem. People will breed for quick money, once they have their money and the pup is out the door, its no longer their responsibility.
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Post by Jessica on Apr 19, 2010 14:29:31 GMT -5
Thank you Sonia that means a lot.
I am being completely honest when i say not a day goes by when i don't look at the dogs the dogs with Cherry and think how fragile she is and what damage they could do...But you can never be too careful ... when you see things like this happen its really hits home. It has floored me if i am honest.
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