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Post by crazyhorse on Jun 14, 2010 15:35:37 GMT -5
i have to agree with n s that game bred dogs seem to have more drive ,
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Post by crazyhorse on Jun 14, 2010 15:47:50 GMT -5
another good point n s , back in the late 80s early 90s a lot of weight was being pulled by staffords and pits , usually in unsuitable harnesses and some in wide collars , the amount of weight does seem to have dropped over the last decade tho this may also be due to less baiting with toys and more command pulling ,
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Post by orangepeel on Jun 14, 2010 16:39:29 GMT -5
No you get a lovely red rossette or if your really lucky you get a blue one. And can I ask what qualifications you have to be a judge at these shows Yes you can ask if you like. I have studied conformation of horses for 10 years and dogs seriously for a little less. Biomechanics of horses and dogs are extemely simular with mainly the spine as an indifferance due to the lack dorso,ventral flexion in the equine. Also the amount of phalanges(toes) are less in the horse although there were three once hence the name equine. The angulation of the scapular and the femoral, tibial joints were originally quantified in the canine by comparing the equine of relevant tasks by huntsmen and a like. Horses for coarses and all that ey!. The picture below is from a recent seminar at work were we watched the horse statically and dynamically. Its my job and im a lucky man. You may ask what the fuck have horses got to do with dogs. When looked at as machines theres quite alot. You need to study all animals to understand motion for diffrent purposes.
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Post by hogdog on Jun 14, 2010 16:48:50 GMT -5
You can't compare the weight pulled in any two weightpull competitions because there are too many variables. If you were to standardise the type of cart/wheels, the pressure in the tyres, the surface type that both the cart and dog travels on and the gradient of the surface (very few supposedly flat surfaces are actually flat) then you might be able to compare competitions and dog's performances as long as you're using the percentages of body weight to weight pulled. As it stands comparing the weight pulled in two different competitions is meaningless...pulling on the rail introduces a further variable as it massively reduces resistance and makes the comparisons even more meaningless.
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Post by orangepeel on Jun 14, 2010 17:18:05 GMT -5
Game dogs pull more my arse. correctly built dogs for puling heavy loads pull more, hence malimutes and shires(draught animals) pull more due to there conformation. Game dogs may pull more for a little while but draught type animals pull for longer! Proven again by there work for many years. With all the will in the world a mid distance runner will never be a match for a sprinter. Evolution dictates work type, heart and wind differentiate the best of simular construction types, granted, but heart and wind will never win it on its own.
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Post by nosurrender on Jun 16, 2010 14:32:45 GMT -5
Orangepeel I did not say that gamedogs can pull more than a "malimute or a shire" thats there job not a staffords that would be like saying a malimute makes a good pit dog. Read the post, I was stating a figure pulled some 20yrs ago by a gamebred dog that is more than your so called athletic dog around at the moment. Surely if now instead of breeding gamedog to gamedog you are breeding athletic dog to athletic dog based on your previous posts you should now be producing top class athletes. Also conditions are a lot better for todays dogs,ie the weightpull is on rails, so god knows what Big Red would of pulled today. Based on what hogdog has posted the rossettes and trophys are not worth feck all for these champions anyway as there are so many different methods how would you know who the best was anyway. Weightpull "my arse"
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Post by orangepeel on Jun 16, 2010 15:25:40 GMT -5
Well we agree on weight pull not being worth a jot then, We havent seen many true athletic breedings to make that judgement, in fact i dont think we have any truely athletic trials that are held yet.
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Post by nosurrender on Jun 16, 2010 16:17:46 GMT -5
We agree on something at last, what are the tests you are now trying out at your sporting events as I understand you would like to take them a step further, would you consider muzzle matches, you could have different weight classes, at least you could see how a dog wrestled with one another and it is humane
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Post by orangepeel on Jun 16, 2010 16:48:24 GMT -5
Yer nice one mate, get back in that time machine.
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Post by k9 on Jun 17, 2010 0:45:33 GMT -5
Muzzle matche's...LMFAO i cant beleave i just read that.
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Post by czbrno on Jun 17, 2010 1:14:26 GMT -5
As far as weightpull on rails goes having built and used such a system on a laser leveled specially built surface i feel qualified to say that in my experience( as an APA judge) over a few years the rail system is not an easier pull for a dog. The very same rail system is now being used ,still i believe,by aces. I obviously cannot vouch for the accuracy of their surface but i am guessing that few people have actually seen the system? It is based on a rollercoaster so the wheel run on top and inside and offer alot of resistance. When we used the other cart,with a car axle and car tyres it definately pulled alot easier. Juts my pennies' worth but the general observation that rail pulling is easier than wheels is most definately not always true. THAT said my understanding of weightpull itself and what it says about the dog is more complex than "gameness" I belive it tell you little about a breed and more about the individual dog- it just happens that the stronger the dog is the better at it ( if ,of course it will pull- but that is another subject altogether- as is baiting to pull)
As for muzzle matches.....PLEASE do me a favour!
How about throwing out the boomer balls and replacing with hamsters in those plastic balls..i want a GR CH in that!!!!!!!!!! LMAO
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Post by relic on Jun 17, 2010 2:53:48 GMT -5
We agree on something at last, what are the tests you are now trying out at your sporting events as I understand you would like to take them a step further, would you consider muzzle matches, you could have different weight classes, at least you could see how a dog wrestled with one another and it is humane there was a man trying to get this off the ground years ago and he got done for it big time, he had his own line of old type bull terriers there was a few different kennels back then with different lines doing good things with EBT types, all of his stock was destroyed that he had on his yard and to be onset he was not liked by the pit dog men as he was bring it on top for them, if you read his stuff that he did he was a good breed student but just a bit to much for most in fact a nutter who offed any one out in a match of boxing or kickboxing and if he won he could carry on with his muzzle mates and they had to get him a new printer so he could get his mags back out ;D, a strange type of man i never met him but me and my mates would buy his mags and videos. i don't now wot ever happened to him.
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Post by nosurrender on Jun 17, 2010 4:31:37 GMT -5
if you are talking about p c l he is dead now but as for all his line of dogs been destroyed you are mistaken, I personally know of dogs bred out of p c l line around today, and performing well in there chosen sport
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Post by relic on Jun 17, 2010 5:45:55 GMT -5
yes i am, i said his dogs on his yard not the dogs that he passed on had been destroyed and yes i know were there s still some good uns about not just from his line but by some of the ofter kennels stock as well, in fact the one breeder was from my part of brum and he is still breeding some top bull terriers today.
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Post by nosurrender on Jun 17, 2010 16:57:01 GMT -5
Orangepeel and hogdog how do you find the EBT in your experience as I know that you have a soft spot for them, do you consider them game
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