question.

[k9]

Was gameness there in dogs already be for the pit?
In the early crosses of bull and terrier breeders must have chosen the spunkiest dogs they could get there hands on...I'm thinking they went to the working terrier men for the the gamest Terriers,worked on badger,fox etc and also some terriers like the wheaten and others were being used in pit fights.
We know the old time bulldog was also used in the pit as well.
So again was gameness already there in the dogs and the pit men just tweaked it a bit taking gameness to its ex stream.
Has gameness always been there in some dogs from the beginning.
Just a few questions to get a topic going.

[grchmason]

Yes mate i agree it's hard to say what came first and it's something thats always puzzled me

I think in the early days dogmen of the pit loved the SPORT so keeping the dogs small 20lb - 40lb ment longer matchs hence the sport side of it

So many questions i would of loved to ask if only we have a time machine LOL!!!

Good post Glen

Tarren

[orangepeel]

it must surely have been there. Every trait that breeds poccess as opposed to other breeds has been highlighted by selective breeding, Gameness is one.

To say that the pit dog is the only truely game animal is i believe a falacy. I believe its a over riding will to survive, and winning means survival in which ever form it takes.

I dont believe that our dogs have a higher pain threshold than other species of animal, only that the more damage inflicted the more the body will shut down the sensation of pain in order to fight out of the situation and allow the animal to survive. This is the a mark of a survivor.

So yes i believe it was around before the dog pit, and is still around today in many other animals, only laying dormant until required.

OFF TOPIC...I really do wish people would not reffer to that 'past time' as a 'sport'. The animals were trying to kill each other. Soilders fight for there lives, some die, some survive, but ask a survivor of the situation they have been placed in if they think it was a sport. I know there answer would be pretty sharp in response. A shame our dogs cant speak ey.

[Bullrover]

I think gameness must have been there before the pit just at lower levels and in fewer dogs. Obviously as people bred for that trait then the level and frequency of gameness presumably increased. I would have thought that the gameness trait could be bred into any shape of dog given time. If all dogs came from the same ancestors why couldn't any shape of dog be bred game given time? it may be harder to game test certain shapes of dogs if they did not have the athletic ability to take part in some from of test but other than that I can't see why gameness should be restricted to a dog of a certain shape, size colour etc.

[grchmason]

Jun 9, 2010 2:37:16 GMT -5 @orangepeel said:

OFF TOPIC...I really do wish people would not reffer to that 'past time' as a 'sport'. The animals were trying to kill each other. Soilders fight for there lives, some die, some survive, but ask a survivor of the situation they have been placed in if they think it was a sport. I know there answer would be pretty sharp in response. A shame our dogs cant speak ey.

ON TOPIC......

Neil i feel your pain as do i (i'm in no way gloryfing dog fighting)

But i'm afraid i call and always will do past times SPORT as that is what History refferes to them ie acts of Bloodsports be it bull baiting, dog fighting etc there is no changing what happened in the past.

Tarren

[orangepeel]

ok matey, maybe im being over sensitive, i can be sometimes. I cried at watership down. Nice to have you back, it had gone quiet for a while

[orangepeel]

I read up the definition of sport on wykepidia (knob i know ;D) and I suppose by rights it fits into there discription but its not the right terminology in my mind Cheers mate.

[czbrno]

Aside the issue(!!?) of what title it's gven ,the drives that we,as humans,over the years have promoted by selective breeding and training / conditioning have always been there.
Every task that "we" ask our dogs to do,be it fighting,retrieving,earth work,whatever is simply a matter of selective breeding and exploitation of natural behaviours.
Drives are not manmade - they are in every dog just in differing quantities - so "gameness" was of course always there but without the intervention of man the levels would never have become so high ....despite the fact that any canine pack would definately include fighting at times, dog fighting itself is completely abnormal behaviour for any dog

[relic]

Jun 10, 2010 8:09:42 GMT -5 @czbrno said:

Aside the issue(!!?) of what title it's gven ,the drives that we,as humans,over the years have promoted by selective breeding and training / conditioning have always been there.
Every task that "we" ask our dogs to do,be it fighting,retrieving,earth work,whatever is simply a matter of selective breeding and exploitation of natural behaviours.
Drives are not manmade - they are in every dog just in differing quantities - so "gameness" was of course always there but without the intervention of man the levels would never have become so high ....despite the fact that any canine pack would definately include fighting at times, dog fighting itself is completely abnormal behaviour for any dog

Spot on

[nosurrender]

This is an interesting topic and I have often asked myself this and who knows for sure but if through breeding 2 game animals together you keep this trait, there will not be many game animals around now days thats for sure

[grchmason]

Jun 10, 2010 2:42:00 GMT -5 @orangepeel said:

ok matey, maybe im being over sensitive, i can be sometimes. I cried at watership down. Nice to have you back, it had gone quiet for a while

No worrys mate Ask Jaimie i still cry at king kong

Thanks for the welcome back hope you and yours are all well

Tarren